After reading a Sivers' blogpost I wrote the following piece and then looked up the unreliable Wikipedia to know more about the "arte" they call poetry.
I am given to understand that with the dawn of literacy and then the invention of printing, poets had to move on to writing more for the eye than for the ear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_poetry
From where i stand as an unschooled singer songwriter in the middle of nowhere : it is the poetry business already (i am in it because i love it with my life, and i persist because i believe in the intrinsic value of what i do)
Here is what i obsess over. The wheel like the fundamentals of what makes a song was never replaced by all the technology and change in the world, though the wheel maker's job has changed radically. I keep asking myself as a poet to look for avenues in what might be the wheel making era 10 years from now.
I wonder if it is the paradigm that sales drives a musician’s livelihood has lost currency. I am obsessing over how I can package the kernel of inspiration for the market ahead.
I am assuming that the market ahead will be so jaded that it will either be hungry for something authentic or throw it up with it’s acquired taste for plastic.
(now) Who am I to assume that what I have is authentic and that everything else is plastic?
but wait a minute it was that assumption that I have something authentic to offer that brought me here in the first place, I must live my myth or not believe it at all.
Interview
2009-03-13
Justin from Berklee College of Music sent me these interview questions. I’m posting it here in case it’s of use to anyone.
If you were starting or promoting a band today, (pretend you’re back at Berklee) what would you do to spread the word? What tools would you use?
The most important part is deciding what to do! You don’t just make any old music, then decide how to spread the word.You decide BEFORE you make the music: What could we create that would be SO noteworthy, SO remarkable, that there’s no way it could be ignored?If it were me, I’d probably make some freaky Blue Man Group type band, and we’d often do michevious publicity stunts to give the media something to get worked-up about.As for tools, I’d try to find ones that aren’t already saturated with music. Maybe an artistic use of Twitter. Or Improv Everywhere.But really I’d make sure that I was always in a real three-way conversation with my fans. Encourage them to talk with me and with eachother. Make my success their success, like Obama.
What are your feelings towards the major record labels today? Have they completely missed the big picture as far as how to market artists and distribute their songs?
It’s easy to look at them as buffoons (like we do politicians), but most of them are surprisingly smart.If you just look at results (the current biggest-sellers), they’re almost all on major labels, so it’s just bad logic to say that the labels are doing everything wrong. Many things wrong, yes. But not everything.This last 10 years has been humbling for them. It’s shaken out the people that are only in it for the money. So most of the people at labels today are in it for the right reasons, and are more entrepreneurial.
Why is the indie scene alive and kicking while the major labels are suffering?
Most indies can profit off of 10,000 sales, but majors can’t. Their different expectations change their costs.The music business might be like the poetry business some day. Which means: almost no profit, and people do it because they want to, never for the money. I’m sure there are some companies making money off of poetry, but not many. Not making millions. So labels still have to get incredibly lean and efficient, so they can actually profit off of something that sells only 10,000 copies.
Since lots of indie musicians make their livings primarily on touring, what do you think the proposed Live Nation/Ticketmaster merger will do to indie artists trying to play big venues? Will there be enough smaller venues left to support the smaller artists?
Every trend has a counter-trend. Video moving to bite-size bits on YouTube? At the same time, the super-long narrative (Lost, Sopranos, 24) is more popular than ever.So if big venues are gobbled up and homogenized, there will be a counter-trend of tons of small places offering small concerts. Whether small businesses or house concerts.
Did you sell CDBaby because of the decline of recorded music? Is the recorded music business among indie labels still thriving?
I only left CD Baby for personal reasons. I like to challenge myself to stay immersed in the unknown. I had been doing CD Baby for 10 years. It was too familiar. That was enough.Recorded music is definitely still thriving for indies. They’re on more of a level playing field than ever. Sales are up.
I’m not sure what your experience is with agents, managers, promoters, etc., but you have talked to numerous successful (and probably unsuccessful) musicians over the years. What is the general consensus on how musicians feel about those people? Do they feel that they need a manager to get gigs? Do you think independent artists need managers today?
Well... Most musicians feel if they just had a good manager/agent/promoter they’d be “all set”.But most managers/agents/promoters will tell you “most artists aren’t ready yet”.I agree. I’m a hard-ass when it comes to talent, because I was a hard-ass on myself. I wrote, improved, recorded, and perfected over 100 songs before I ever released one! Produced and engineered those 100 songs, playing all the instruments myself. I practiced my vocals for 2 intense hours a night for 5 years before anyone heard me sing. I would write twenty verses for every song, to find two good ones. I’ve performed over 1000 shows in 10 years, to all kinds of audiences. 8am in the cold to kids. 2am to a drunken southern bar. Learning how to win over every kind of crowd under any situation.So if I were to invest in an artist, I’d expect nothing less than what I’d done, as just a basic entry-level way of showing they’re serious about this, and are going to commit at least 10 years of non-stop diligent self-improvement to it.In other words, I think it’s the artist’s responsibility to develop themselves to the point where they’ve proven their persistence and ability to make music that people love - to put on a show that people love.Then yes, once they’ve got more bookings than they can handle, it’s a good time to hand that job to an agent.As for a manager, I think that should be like a business-minded band member. One person in the band whose sole job is to handle the business and marketing. It doesn’t have to be a professional manager. But yes, someone of that mindset should definitely be included always. Don’t go too long without one!
If I could take away just a few things from what I’ve learned about you, they would be: 1. Be true to yourself. 2. It’s all about the music! 3. Don’t do it (start a business, band or anything) for the money or some other material motivator; do it because it helps you, it helps other people or because it’s what you love to do. Is this accurate? Is there anything you would add?
Cool. There’s a great quote: “If you can learn music, you can learn anything.”Making music is a great vehicle for self-improvement.To be a great musician, you have to learn how to focus. You have to observe yourself objectively to notice what needs improvement, and have the dedication to improve that, even when you think you can’t.To be a successful professional musician, you have to learn how to look at yourself through others’ eyes. You have to understand why the venue owner is really booking artists, why this person really signed your mailing list, and why people really go out to a bar at midnight on a Thursday.It’s an amazing learning experience, and as you’ve noticed, I’m endlessly fascinated in this side of things.
Does Justin have some music somewhere so that we could have a listen?
Rob
i know i want to be, and continue to be, a musician, and i love that right now everything is totally up in the air with how to "make it". with that, comes great opportunity for invention/trying new and wacky things.
Definitely not. It was suffering the last couple years I was there, because I just wasn't into it, yet still in control of it. It's in better hands now. -- Derek
Thanks for posting our "interview". I really appreciate your time and sharing some of your many insights into the business.
While I am a musician, I've been focusing on the business side of the industry and will be spending this summer in LA to complete my final internship for Berklee (with a company yet to be determined ;) ). I know we've all heard Derek's thoughts about cdbaby so I wanted to see what his thoughts were on the industry as a whole.
Thanks again Derek! Glad you all enjoyed it.
http://www.myspace.com/dereksiversmusic
Nope. That's not me. Believe it or not there's another Derek Sivers, who's also a musician. I'm not on MySpace. My music is all here athttp://sivers.org/music if you want to hear it. -- Derek
That's what I think will happen.
Given today's economy, fans not only have less money to spend on recorded music, they have less to spend on shows and merchandise.
There will always be people who listen to music and who write, perform, and record it, so there will always be music. But that doesn't necessarily mean people will make a living from music.
That's not such a bad thing, though. If the music becomes something you do with your family and friends because it is fun and you all love it, then it becomes a grassroots experience. People will come together in church, in homes, on street corners and in parks, and they will play for themselves and for others.
They will get out their computers and record and then share it with others on the Internet.
So rather than music being like poetry, it might be more accurate to say music is like softball. Lots of people play, some better than others, but virtually no one does it for a living.
Certainly rings true for me. I returned to guitar playing as an adult after having dropped it when I went to college. Now my daily practice gives enhances my life. I have found there are two times to practice guitar - when I want to and when I don't want to. When I make the effort with the latter, in a short time I want to practice.
For me music is a gift. Today I love sharing my music. But to be comfortable as a performer has been a struggle. But that is a long story. Thanks for being here.
So informative, always,
Thanks Derek,
Oya
I get all my gigs AND my band members from Myspace.
I went there once years ago and it crashed my browser. I looked again a year later and it looked like a mess. It just doesn't appeal to me. Can't do it all. -- Derek
I totally agree with the work ethic thing, but it's gotta originate from a place of love and wonder, otherwise it's usually pretty uninspired and for me, the point is to connect with people on a spiritual level and that only happens from authenticity (it can be tempting to stray from that when money is waved in your face, but it's just a "transparent dangling carrot.")
As far as music going the way of modern poetry, I respectfully, strongly disagree...
I'm in a small northern Mexico town right now where Beto Diaz has signs posted everywhere for a show/dance he's doing. Half the town will attend...
Music has been the center of festivities for a long time and will continue to be. And you will always be able to get paid for that. GREAT music, to dance to, to sing to, to run to, to accompany audio/visuals etc will be in demand for a loooong time. Poetry is wonderful but isn't as flexibly funtional as music...
QUALITY and INGENUITY will always prevail.
As an artist who sits in a "no man's land" between the two, I have to agree with Derek wholeheartedly. And I've had to learn to be a hard-ass on myself.
I'm no spring chicken now; I wasn't "ready" when I was. I've spent years developing my talent and sought out professional assistance in selecting songs from a vast catalogue for my first proper "release". Also, because I'm no spring chicken; because live venues are limited in the city where I live – where musicians fight to protect their turf; because the industry reports CD sales in double-digit decline: I decided to differentiate myself – to create a different product in the form of a "musical book" - so I could tap into alternative sales channels. And here's what I discovered from the mouths of these two industries, neither of whom seemed to appreciate the other side, even though they are both suffering in the same way:
- As a songwriter, my lyrics are considered "to poetical" - not appealing to a broad market and "no-one buys folk music". I knew that already, which is why I put hope in the publishing industry.
- As an author, my work is classed as poetry (actually prose poetry). But unfortunately, there are only a handful of major publishers remaining, none of whom publish poetry (Penguin being the last to, recently, drop this genre); they all focus on pop fiction now (I'm excluding non-fiction in my discussion) because "no-one buys poetry anymore". Sound familiar?
One of the biggest hurdles I've learned is promotion. That's why the major labels and publishers focus their effort on the biggest market segments for new acts. But I believe that product quality (product in the broader sense) is paramount and is, I think, what underpins Derek's discussion.
Musicians, more than poets, are seduced into believing that the internet is "the saviour" of promotion. I'll put my "consumer" hat on. When I search for indie music (I have a very broad musical taste and like to buy indie), I find an awful lot of poorly recorded music from bands that, probably, have little following. I just don't want to download their songs, even for free, because the "quality" is poor. And when I say "little following" I'm not talking about small internet following, like not having 30,000 MySpace friends; some of the best Indie music that I've bought is from bands that don't boast huge "friend followings". Here's a story that illustrates what I'm saying here: A close friend of mine plays in a very successful (major label) rock band. Their management agreed to engage a support act for their last tour based on this band having a huge internet following. The result was very few extra fans to the gigs and, mostly, the audience just did not like them! I also think that consumers are leery of free offers due to the overuse of this tactic by telemarketing companies and, more recently, internet marketing. If your music is good, giving it away for free devalues music. This is, ultimately, what is driving indie music industry to be more like the poetry industry. And once we're only writing music for love and playing it for fun, who will want to be an engineer or a producer? And when all music on the internet is free, who will pay for the equipment and people who support our indie music business?
OK, getting off my philosophical soapbox, say you have a great "product". How does one build a following? I've recently read an interesting article on human "herd mentality" (http://tinyurl.com/cqtwo9) and have for many years watched crowd behavior with interest. In fact, I've just returned from a music festival where I noted how the more successful acts have two ingredients: great product (songs) - not necessarily using the formulas mandated by the latest "how to write great songs" book; and audience participation. And I believe that it's hard (I won't say "impossible") to achieve the second part solely using the internet. Incidentally, I also discovered "poet breakfasts": poetry performance to an audience of poet lovers – people that get out of bed before musicians :o) I noticed that the most popular "performers" used visual "props" to engage the audience in addition to good, intellectually engaging, "product".
Ok, time to stop my ranting. I guess I'm reinforcing Derek's point that "... it's the artist’s responsibility to develop themselves..." – after all, the A&R departments no longer have the money or desire to do artist development. But my other point is product is everything – you do get what you pay for unless you're stealing!
The poetry analogy isn't really accurate either. Poetry is no longer a viable way to make money because no one reads poetry anymore.
Everyone listen's to music! It may be the most thriving art form on the planet.Every restaurant, mall, and kinko's location has music playing. Almost every car on the highway has music playing inside. Carpenters listen to music as they work. People are consuming music at incredible rates. With so much music is needed for our society, we're probably going to have to pay for it one way or another. You can't expect all this to appear for free.
It's wonderful that people can record so affordably, and if some individuals want to give their music away for free, that's a great gift to us all. I offer a couple free songs on my own website. But I'm leery of any line of thinking that implies that art should be free. That I should be able to take someone else's artwork and consume it for free doesn't make sense. If I do so, it cripples their ability to make more art. Quality will slip.
It's sad to think we could live in a world where artists can't make a living with their work. We'd be reverting to the days of Mozart & Beethoven where the only artists who could devote intensive energy to their work had support from a king or duke. In today's world, that would translate into Microsoft or Walmart having their own 'court musicians'. It doesn't take much imagination to foresee the kind of trinket music we'd be left with.
As Gavin said, "you do get what you pay for" and if we quit paying for music we can't expect much effort from our artists in return.
I just discovered your blog. Love it.
Fave quote from your interview:
Well… Most musicians feel if they just had a good manager/agent/promoter they’d be “all set”.
But most managers/agents/promoters will tell you “most artists aren’t ready yet”.
Man, that is so true. Many, many musicians out there can appear almost resentful that the world isn't beating a path to their door.
Also, the actual work that is required to record a song is now so little, that, in my opinion, people hit record way before they've got anything worth recording.
No matter how advanced technology gets, craft will always matter, and craft is achieved through hard, repetitive work.
In thinking about all this I'm reminded of a line from the Unforgiven: "Deservin's got nothin' to with it." So true. No one DESERVES to make it. No one.
Jeff
www.cerebellumblues.com
Do you write music anymore? From the look of http://sivers.org/music it looks like it's been a decade. If not, why?
I don't anymore, no. Stopped when CD Baby took over my life. I'll write about this in detail some day. -- Derek
There are vast differences between being an iconic personality, a master technician, and a true artist.. The iconic personalities often have the best chances of creating wealth and fame, master technicians usually find steady work, and true artists often fall in the cracks..
Worldly success seems to be about 1% inspiration and 99% promotion, the music often suffers for it, but it doesn't matter because most sheep in the herd don't reakky care about artistic authenticity and stuff like that. They just listen along with the other sheep and stay with the crowd. Very few sheep leave the herd and become heard..
Here is what i obsess over. The wheel like the fundamentals of what makes a song was never replaced by all the technology and change in the world, though the wheel maker's job has changed radically. I keep asking myself as a poet to look for avenues in what might be the wheel making era 10 years from now.
I wonder if it is the paradigm that sales drives a musician’s livelihood has lost currency. I am obsessing over how I can package the kernel of inspiration for the market ahead.
I am assuming that the market ahead will be so jaded that it will either be hungry for something authentic or throw it up with it’s acquired taste for plastic.
(now) Who am I to assume that what I have is authentic and that everything else is plastic?
but wait a minute it was that assumption that I have something authentic to offer that brought me here in the first place, I must live my myth or not believe it at all.